Things Are Looking Up for MSNBC Host Chris Hayes
by Cynthia McCabe | August 03, 2012
We chatted this week with the host of MSNBC’s Up With Chris Hayes. The one-time labor reporter has swapped his notepad for a TV studio, but hasn’t lost his pro-union, progressive politics along the way. Last month saw the release of his first book, Twilight of the Elites: America After Meritocracy, in which he examines the growing divide between the haves and the have-nots in this country. We talked to him about why that system can’t last, how media can help or hurt the American worker, his favorite folks on Twitter, and why he’s optimistic about this country.
MSNBC's Chris Hayes (Photo credit: MSNBC/Heidi Gutman)
You’ve called income inequality “the core economic fact of America” and Glenn Greenwald’s piece on Salon this week about your book points to a lack of elite fear about that inequality. What changes that dynamic and makes them worry about a gross disparity and, best case scenario, want to actually do something about it?
That’s the $64,000 question. I think history shows that actual disruption to the status quo tends to do that. Nothing ever happens except by the folks in power and the folks at the top, the elite, thinking that the actual preservation of their elite status is now threatened. They don’t fear now.
A few years back, you wrote, “Without the American labor movement there is no American left.” What did you mean by that?
We have unionism and labor as one of America’s core fundamental organizing principles. Trade unionism presents a check on the excesses of democratic capitalism. It’s very hard to conceive of what a more equitable society looks like without a reintegrated American labor movement.
You started that same piece by saying that in 30 years there’s a very real possibility we might not have labor unions. Did seeing labor and its allies pull together last year in Wisconsin and Ohio and beyond affect your prognosis at all?
Look, I think there’s potential for mobilization. It just seems to me like the deck is so stacked right now against the interests of labor unions. Something has to break before there’s more space for unions. The uprising in Wisconsin was really inspiring. It’s easy to discount the wellspring of solidarity that lies in the human heart, waiting to be tapped. It always surprises people when it’s tapped but it’s always been there.
Let’s talk about pensions. There’s incredible animosity being ginned up in the average American about his neighbor, a public service worker, who has a pension. Really the question needs to be, why doesn’t he want one for himself? Shouldn’t more Americans be demanding this form of retirement security that was once more prevalent?
Absolutely. This is compensation. You negotiate for what you’re going to get paid. This isn’t a giveaway. This is part of someone’s compensation – it’s just deferred. Be pissed off at the politicians who wanted to make promises that they wouldn’t have to keep and now want to renege on the promises of their predecessors. That’s what’s morally contemptible. Given the gyrations of the financial markets, it’s remarkable to me that that hasn’t changed our national conversation around retirement security. We see now that that market can be remarkably volatile and unstable. If you happen to retire at the wrong time, you’re screwed. Why is that the system that we want?
On your show, you effectively distill complex issues for viewers. How do you explain difficult topics like the economic crisis to someone who’s not an economist or a policy wonk?
By highlighting the stakes of any given policy conversation are. Why do you care? How does this hash out in reality? When we’re teeing up a topic a conversation that’s something we’re tuned into, have the stakes been adequately been put in the ground? To be totally honest, people have a longer attention span and a lot more curiosity and tolerance for ambiguity. That’s been really gratifying. Our show gets a remarkable cross section of viewers: professors, guys selling umbrellas on the street. There’s a thirst to figure out what’s going on. We’ve really learned to take that seriously and don’t waste people’s time.
You also curate a conversation that brings in divergent viewpoints and does so respectfully, turning the partisan political shoutfest model on its ear. And you yourself appear to be willing to be convinced of opposing views in the course of the show’s conversations. Do you consider yourself an outlier at a time when most folks are comfortably in the tank for one particular ideology?
I consider myself a genuinely curious person. I come from a family that likes debate. And I like debating. If there’s not an actual exchange there’s something kind of off-putting about that. If we as liberals want to persuade folks, that street has to be a two-way street. You have to be persuadable.
And what about media in the partisan culture. Is middle-of-the-road news delivery – the CNN model -- dead?
CNN is a massively profitable operation. Everyone should pay a little more attention to CNN’s bottom line. You can’t be boring. You can simultaneously be open-minded and fair and have a perspective that you’re transparent about. I think people increasingly want that. They want to know where you’re coming from.
MSNBC's Chris Hayes (Photo credit: MSNBC/Heidi Gutman)
There are several cable networks devoted to the ins and outs of Wall Street and much of today’s economic reporting is catered toward CEOs, corporations and the super-rich. What can the average person do to make sure that the stories of everyday Americans are being told?
I think Ed (Schultz)’s show has been remarkable in this respect. That show has produced more union representation than all of the past 20 years in the media. Journalists should want to tell stories about what people are going through. That’s what often gets lost, particularly in the world of political reporting. Sometimes we fall short of the standard. You have to be talking to people that have skin in the game. That means people who are long-term unemployed, people who just retired on a defined-benefit pension they negotiated with their union and their county.
How can labor and progressives work more closely together?
There’s a period in which that relationship was really bad and got better. Wisconsin was really good for that. It’s just really important to balance the talk of labor’s decline with the fact that there are still millions of people in the labor movement. Wisconsin really reinvigorated that coalition of solidarity. The question is now what? What are the demands? What can be delivered? What can progressives help with in the terms of those demands? What is there proactively that can happen? Minimum wage might be a really fruitful place for partnership.
AFSCME has a dedicated group of young union members called Next Wavers. Youth and unionism don’t exactly go hand-in-hand anymore in America today. What brought you to support of unionism as a young man and do you consider this kind of development of young unionists important for the country?
I was raised in the Catholic social justice tradition. At In These Times, I covered the labor movement. If the labor movement is going to survive, which I do think is a genuinely open question, who’s going to preserve it? It’s crucially, vitally important to bring in young people.
OK, now it’s time for the fun stuff. What’s your favorite political movie?
All The President’s Men
Who are your favorite progressive folks to follow on Twitter?
I like @PourMeCoffee. And @mattbruenig. He’s a college kid – I don’t even know what school he goes to – but he’s really sharp. And @sarahljaffe, who covers class politics.
Have you ever been nervous about interviewing a particular guest?
Nancy Pelosi. I’m generally not nervous for interviews.
Last question: What makes you optimistic about America?
Right now I’m reading a historical fiction novel from Stephen Carter, The Impeachment of Abraham Lincoln. It’s led me to read Eric Foner’s magnum opus on Reconstruction. It’s a good perspective check. America has overcome some really horrible forms of oppression and tyranny that must have looked like they’d go on forever. Night riders in the Reconstruction South and lynching. We just cannot lose site of the miracle of progress that is represented by the history of the nation. The kind of improbably delicacy of democracy. It’s remarkable and a miracle to me that democracy in any form survives, when you consider the threat to democracy that we have survived.
Portions of this interview condensed for clarity. You can get a copy of Hayes’ new book, Twilight of the Elites: America After Meritocracy, at Powells.com.
